AWDS CO Debates + Commentary


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CO Debates #1
[CD1R1-RCBvBB]
[CD1R1-VvVP]
[CD1R1-THMvR]

So, here are all the AWDS CO debates; all 3, each round. I'll post the debates in full, spell-checking and correcting grammar where necessary, and after stating who ultimately won give my own commentary. With that, let's begin:

CO Debates #1

This debate started in March of 2006 and ended April of the same year. At this point in time, Indirects were pretty much considered king, and as a result the tier list was kind of jumbled up compared to now.

Round 1: RichBoyColin vs Biggabertha [CD1R1-RCBvBB]

RichBoyColin Opener
I think Colin is good because his units are 20% cheaper, and only 10% weaker; that's a bargain to take into consideration, and Colin's probably the best character in terms of money. Also, he's the best in pre-deployed maps because I don't waste money (except by supplying) and Power of Money will hype my units up a lot.

Biggabertha Opener
With 20% added defense and offence, it's tough to kill any of Kanbei's units in one hit unless you're specialized in that area. With a strong formation and careful planning, you can easily send a relatively weak unit backed up by several other units to secure certain parts of the map in order to amass funds. Due to added defense, Kanbei can successfully hold out on capturing the property even if swarmed by other units.

After Kanbei has gotten a secure foothold of the map (Such as 15 properties or so) he can continually produce very-hard to kill tanks to support the army. Kanbei gets much stronger as the more properties are captured.

Kanbei has the best chances at pre-deployed maps because his weakness isn't even factored in. His day to day really shines if there are no factories for any of the armies purely because of his near invulnerability to most weapons.

With a moderate CO power meter, Kanbei can launch a completely all out attack against any opposition due to increased defenses  increased attack and counter-attacks become very very strong. Any unit that is under Samurai Spirit and is on a mountain or on a building becomes virtually invincible to normal attacks. Unit match ups become foolish and Kanbei effectively has a free turn.

With powerful tag affinities with his daughter Sonja and the chivalrous Javier, Kanbei can be used both as a sword or a shield with either of these partners. Teaming up with Sonja would render several of the opponents reliance on terrain useless and with indirect fire cover from Javier, it's tough to hold up choke points against either CO.

Kanbei has Code of Honor which is a 10% power boost with Javier under tag power and Battle standard. An unbelievably powerful 30% tag boost with his daughter Sonja as well as bonuses to luck.

Sonja's very small CO power meter should allow that she helps her father be used as the main attacker while she purchases units or prepare for a tag. Javier also has a similar CO power meter in comparison to Kanbei and therefore can be used mainly or on the sidelines.

As for defeating Colin? Heh, Kanbei basically has 30% defense against Colin. Whatever he throws at Kanbei has to be a very powerful unit or a swarm of units. In order to destroy a tank deployed by Kanbei with Colin, you need three tanks without relying on luck. So for Kanbei, that's 8400 for his tank, Colin would have to spend 16,800 to destroy it completely. Then, you have other units to worry about because you're not going to find just a tank with no units supporting it.

Colin also suffers greatly in the counter attacking department. I'll explain with an example. Kanbei has a tank and so does Colin. Both units are on a road within range of each other. Kanbei attacks first dealing on average 7HP of damage. Colin counter attacks with 10% less power, and has to break through 20% extra defense  Colin deals 1HP on average to Kanbei. Now, assume Colin attacked first. Colin deals on average 3HP of damage average and Kanbei counterattacks with 20% extra power. He deals 5HP of damage on average.

Colin must rely on superior numbers to win, Kanbei relies on careful unit selection and careful planning in order to win. (Except on pre-deployed maps with no other factories available.)

RichBoyColin First Rebuttal
Well, even if Colin's units are 30% weaker, I can simply use artillery and rockets to weaken your forces [then attack head on with Megatanks that are cheap] unless you are planning to use Javier. Plus, if we're applying force, I have Combat Pay, Sale Price, Gold Rush, and Star Power, that'll help me win any battle with Colin.

Colin is always the best with pre-deployed maps. He can save up all his money, aside from supplying, and if I manage to save, like, 99999999 (forgot what the max was), i can do 999% damage to any unit with any units.

Also, to get his Power of Money more powerful, I can simply use a few Gold Rushes and raise money for strong units, then save some up, and save my CO Power Meter, and launch Power of Money and assault anyone.

Even when Kanbei can attack first during my turn, I can still weaken him, except if it's dog-fighting.

His tag affinity with Sasha is one of the best. First use Sasha, attack and raise money, then swap to Colin and put all that money to use and blast tanks away. Not even a Samurai Spirit can stop Trust Fund when used correctly.

Colin and Sasha have equal COP meters, meaning they can increase it slowly and at the same rate of speed. Also, Colin's Gold Rush can give me money to save up for Power of Money. Sasha's Market Crash can totally wipe out an enemy's COP meter if she has a lot of money, because I gave Combat Pay to both Colin and Sasha. So they will get money for their powers to launch and work at full potential.

Unless you're using Javier for defense during my turn, I don't have to swarm you, I can use snipers (even though they're weaker from Javier's day-to-day) and swarm all your units during your tag. Also, Colin won't need to spend 16,800 for tanks. I was smart enough to put Sale Price, making the price reduction 25% instead of 20%. That means tanks are 5250. 5250*3 = 15,750, way less than 16,800.

Colin may not be good with CS (counter-striking), but if I had used Power of Money first, it's very effective to counter.

Also, to repair units for Colin is cheap. For Kanbei, it takes 20% more the regular price, but for me, it only takes 7.5 out of 10 of the price to repair units (including the skills I equipped.

Colin can simply swarm anyone with Md's, Neos, and Megas anytime because of his price reduction. Kanbei may take a long while to deploy a Megatank. He has to save up money, but as all people would start, you need to deployed other units first for protection. Colin can simply blast away at Kanbei's futile defenses with Megatanks. Both these COs need money, but Colin puts his money to more use than Kanbei, because none of his COPs require use of his money.

Biggabertha First Rebuttal
First thing's first, you can produce units at 20% less than the normal price. Fine. That means you can make an infantry at 800 instead of my 1200 or a tank for 5600 instead of my 8400. Pretty big differences there already. You'll have 40% more money than I will most of the time then if I match you unit for unit. But can your units last 40% longer than mine?

You have units with the same defense as Andy, fine. That makes you even easier to crush than him because you can't heal your units like he can.

You think that Colin has the best manipulation of money? There's no denying that at all. Colin can freely increase his funds if CO powers are used. However, thinking Colin is superior to Kanbei in all pre-deployed maps isn't completely true. I have two examples, one is the Hard campaign and the other is my own depiction.

Mission 4 Hard Campaign: Reclaim the Skies. Try this with Kanbei first. Then try it with Colin so you know what to do. Kanbei can wipe out the entire map save for 6-7 units and bear the brunt of Jugger's SCO power with perhaps two casualties at the most. Colin however, can only destroy up to eight units and have seriously crippled his forces in doing so. You talk of your SCO power giving you a little boost? How can you use it on day two with only around 8000G? A lot of your units have been defeated and you can barely counter-attack with your own units.

However, if you don't have access to the Hard Campaign yet, don't worry. The next example is quite similar in that it shows Kanbei's superiority on pre-deployed maps.

Example 2.
There are ten units on each side. They are all tanks. There are twenty cities so therefore there are 20,000G coming in everyday. The match is Colin Vs. Kanbei. I know this is very generalized  but Kanbei would win here no matter what. Colin may amass a massive amount of funds but he cannot even hope to destroy more than five tanks.

Start from day one, Colin goes first, he's within firing range of all ten tanks and the entire map is a road. Colin can either hit every tank once to cripple Kanbei or single out a tank and destroy it completely. Either way, Colin will be left with a lot of crippled units ranging from 5-7 HP and Kanbei will have lost up to five whole tanks or just 3-4HP per tank. Kanbei's turn. Assuming we have CO powers activated, Kanbei might have his CO power filled but not his SCO meter. Either way, Kanbei can destroy at least five units with his tanks whether or not they are at full HP or not.

Colins CO power can't even come to play in this map at all. Now, I know it's pretty impossible to have this kind of situation, and everything is stacked to favor Kanbei. But ultimately, Kanbei rules all pre-deployed maps due to his day to day bonus and his weakness completely eliminated. You talk of using your SCO power? Fine, go ahead. Use it on what little units you may have left and on what little HP they may have as well. Dealing 999 damage with the maximum amount of money with any unit? All Kanbei needs is the correct unit to wipe a unit out or bring it very close to defeat.

However, I will admit that Colin has a large advantage that he is able to use his money to boost himself on pre-deployed only in the late game when a substantial amount of money has been accumulated.
If the map has no factories, Colin has a tough challenge keeping all of his units alive for SCO power to activate. If there are factories, then there will be neutral properties as well. Kanbei can also capture these and as said in my first post, if Kanbei can gather a substantial amount of properties, you cannot hope to do much against him. (In excess of 15 properties will make Kanbei very formidable.)

But, there are a lot of if's in there...

RichBoyColin Second Rebuttal
40% is a good number: it's only 10% less than 50%, which is decent for an attack.

In pre-deployed maps, Colin is good, because whichever CO attacks Kanbei, they build their COP meter faster. So, the more I attempt to attack Kanbei's units, the more I get my COP meter, the more money I get from Gold Rushes.

But pre-deployed games usually have properties to capture, except towers which do not affect your accumulated funds. I can capture more and save up money, plus cities have *** defense. I can capture with ease as well as join units together for more money, even if it's pre-deployed (where when you lose one, it's lost forever)
Also, if I manage to capture Kanbei's properties at the same rate as i capture neutral properties, I can certainly get a lot of money, at least more than 10,000.

Biggabertha Second Rebuttal
Nice argument about the Megatank. It's true that Kanbei can't build a Megatank as fast as you can nor can he produce any unit with the same speed Colin can. Shame though, that once Kanbei does get a Megatank, Colin is worse off than most other CO's to take it out because of the massive defense on it.

What's that you say? You'll use air attacks and indirect fire? Go ahead. use ALL of your units to try and destroy or cripple the Megatank. Oh look at that, you've used more than half of your units to try and kill one of mine. Heh.... Perfect distraction. I just retreat the unit, send it to be more bait or just join it up with another Megatank. Either way, you're in big trouble because there are of course other units you neglected while trying to kill just one unit.

You like tagging with Sasha? I like tagging with Sonja. Her CO meter is only five stars. Kanbei can build up for Samurai spirit, and Sonja will be ready to tag. You want to use Sasha's CO power to disable it? Go for it. That means you can't produce units at a reduced cost thus limiting your units for the day and rendering yourself prone to more attacks. Also, every time you use a power, whether it is CO power, SCO power or a Tag power, it takes longer for you to accumulate the stars next time.

So you want to use Gold rush and Market crash a lot? Go for it. If Colin uses Gold rush, you've increased your money and you'll probably want to save that money up for the next round in order to use it again right? That means no units in production today or very weak units produced.

You want to use Market crash? Well, that's a Sasha debate so I'll not go into the details.

Ha ha ha ha ha!! You think swarming Kanbei with lots and lots of indirects is going to work as well? Indirects have the weakest defense of all unit types whether they are land or sea units. What can you do with a bunch of indirects with 3 or 4HP after they've been assaulted by foot soldiers and recons? Imagine what damage tanks would cause..... You want to know how I can get up to the indirects for such an assault? Javier or Kanbei.... Easy..... Extra defense ... Nothing to worry about at all. You'd have to swarm either CO by a factor of 4 to 1 in order to fully wipe out that unit.

You think Power of Money is going to rescue you? What can you do after Gold rushing so many times, saving up your money while your units of just Mechs are getting pummeled by my Anti-airs and Battle Copters? You'll produce other units you say? Like what? Tanks? Md. Tanks? Neotanks? Megatanks? That'll delay your SCO power and increase time for Kanbei's SCO power to be built up. You also say if you have the maximum amount of money, you deal 999% to anything with whatever unit? That's undeniably true... I can't do anything about that, not even Samurai Spirit with the unit on a mountain would be able to survive that attack.

Oh wait.... Have you ever accumulated the maximum funds? I remember it was very difficult to do that even with 20 properties because you need to produce units that will stall enough time for you to get rich. So you either spend money to protect yourself from getting wiped out, or you save it up and hope that the single mech you're left with will deal 999 to one of my units.

You want to use Power of Money to counter attack? That happens how often? Kanbei gets this bonus from day 1. With or without CO powers. You using Power of Money doesn't mean your defenses have been raised though... Just your attack power. So my AA will still deal 100% to your foot soldiers even though you're under SCO power with the potential to severely damage it.

Main point is, Colin is all about first strike. If Colin is struck first, he is too weak to counterattack. When Kanbei is attacked, he can counter attack (if possible) and deal a respectable amount of damage during the return fire. Who builds up CO meter fastest?

I'd also like to point out that CO meters are built up faster when your own units are attacked. Colin swarming Kanbei would simply fuel his CO meter at a much faster rate. perhaps not as fast as Colin though because Kanbei has counterattacks that can equal or better Colin's initial attack...

Sure enough, Colin and Sasha do have one of the best tag powers and tag power bonuses; Kanbei has that too though. Sonja's ability to reduce terrain stars make your units very vulnerable. Kanbei's boost to defense makes him untouchable. Granted, this is only one turn, but it forces you to not attack with directs at all. And do you really think a CO would attack an attacking unit or a supporting unit first? Why should I go after the Megatank that I know will deal lots of damage when I know it can only harm one of my units the next turn? Your indirects are of a greater concern to me as you pointed out. So when I take them out, you'll be forced into four options:

1. Build more indirects and launch an assault.
2. Build more directs and launch an assault.
3. Assault with what units you have with the SCO power you'll have pretty much guaranteed to have gotten after that tag power.
4. Retreat your units and build more units.

Option four is the only logical choice here. The first three options spell doom for Sasha/Colin Tag. Sasha can't hope to touch any of Kanbei's units and cannot attack Sonja directly because of her powerful counterattack-first strike. Colin can hope that his attack will be raised sufficiently to deal 100% damage or more otherwise the counterattack will be devastating.

My Commentary
Let's start out by saying that Colin and Kanbei are just about evenly matched. With that in mind, RCB did a really horrible job utilizing Colin's strengths in a debate setting, even giving more credit than is actually due. He manages to name all of Colin's strengths without ever talking about how to capitalize on them. Spamming Neotanks and Megatanks? Maybe with Hachi, but definitely not with Colin unless you use the money skills. Granted, RCB did mention the money skills, but he wasn't really supposed to talk about those; and besides, Kanbei with money skills is arguably scarier.

Speaking of Kanbei, you're probably expecting me to rip into Biggabertha's Megatank argument. Well, Bigga's argument is valid, he's just arguing it for the wrong CO. The likelihood of Kanbei purchasing anything above a Md Tank is slim unless you're playing on higher funds, much less buying a Megatank... or multiple Megatanks as Bigga seems to suggest. Then again, maybe RCB's comment led him to believe they were arguing for high funds, who knows.

A lot of RCB's argument also hinged on the Colin/Sasha Tag, which... well that Tag's strengths really don't have a whole heck of a lot to do with Colin himself. Colin's main focus is to horde up tech and maybe, occasionally, light off some firepower. The Trust Fund Tag alternates between Colin's COP and TB for slightly less tech backed up by massive firepower, double moves, and a bit of spam. I know that may not sound like the biggest difference ever, but they really don't behave very similarly at all.

Let's compare RCB's Tag argument to Biggabertha's, just in terms of quality. Whereas RCB picked the Colin Tag that falls in line the least with the rest of his argument, Bigga picked Battle Standard, which can pretty much be summed up as "Kanbei+." Basically, everything Bigga argued for Kanbei earlier could still be applied here, and in addition he could "big it up" so to speak. Not to mention Bigga argued his Tag as exactly that: a Tag; RCB, on the other hand, argued as though he were just using two COs at once. The biggest flaw, though, is that RCB devoted most of his first rebuttal to talk about why his Trust Fund Tag was awesome and seemed to forget after awhile that he was supposed to be focusing on Colin, whereas Bigga only used the Tags he named to bolster an existing argument.

Both sides also made arguments for pre-deployed maps. RCB made a valiant effort here, but really the only COs better at this than Kanbei are Sensei and Hachi; in that order. Colin is just a firepower CO with a weak d2d on these maps, and his occasional bursts of exponentially growing power aren't going to make up for the fact that he has a hard time dealing damage the rest of the time.

One last thing that Biggabertha himself pointed out to me: at one point in his second rebuttal he says that Samurai Spirit Kanbei on a mountain couldn't survive Colin attacking at 999 offense. Actually, Kanbei can survive it since that takes him up to the magical bullshit that is 200 defense. Invulnerability is what it is, after all.

Unsurprisingly, Biggabertha ended up winning this round.


Round 1: Vortexian vs VariousPositions [CD1R1-VvVP]

Vortexian Opener
The Green Noble Knight
Javier, a tiny knight in the Green Earth Empire. His units initially have only a defense boost, which is only for indirect defense, but watch out! If this guy gets his hands on com towers, you are in even more trouble than against any other CO.

The Powers of Honor
Javier's strength lies in his defense. Every unit always has a boost in indirect defense, which is more powerful than most people think. If we look at ground forces, indirect attacks are the most powerful attacks you can use: you need an equal or higher tank to defeat a tank, but artillery can do decent damage to all tanks, and rockets are even worse.
But the attack-increasing Com Towers give an additional defense boost to every unit Javier has. That makes them, with one CT, already as powerful as Hawke (+10 defense) and with two as strong as Kanbei. And to make things worse, Javier can double or even triple his CT effects with his CO powers. Also add the normal 10% attack/defense boost and more indirect defense, and enemy indirects will be useless.

Sword VS Machine Gun
Javier is a very strong CO when against Sami. Sami has to rely on Indirects to damage the opponent a lot. Her direct attacks are powered down, except for her strongest units, the infantry and the mech. Her powers are best when used for a capturing strategy. Quite powerful against Javier, as he can be powered down a lot when he loses com towers, but every smart Javier user would place units on important buildings, like Com towers and the HQ. A smart Javier player would also make a wall, so no enemy transport can go through. Javier always has the advantage, and with Com Towers, Sami is in lots of trouble.

Comet Tags
Javier tags with 4 additional COs, three of them being in Yellow Comet. With Kanbei and Jess he can get a 110% tag, while with Sensei and Grimm, he gets 105%.
With Kanbei, he can be the second-most-powerful tag team when he has Com towers. But even without CT, their powers are immense. Watch with who goes first, though. If you have less than two towers, let Kanbei go last. With two towers, it doesn't matter. With three or more, Javier should be the last one. Against Sami, it always is a better idea to let Javier go first and Kanbei go last.
In all ground battles, Javier and Jess are a deadly combo. While Jess gets in control of Com Towers, Javier prepares to use his COP or SCOP to annihilate his enemies. Tag them up and let Jess go in control first, destroying a lot of Sami's mechs and placing Indirect units ready for Javier's turn.
There is another tag with Javier who can be quite lethal. When combined with Lash, he can be quite a pain. additional terrain defense is always handy and when you, during a tag power, first attack with Lash, placing them on highly defensive terrain, followed by Javier with his defense bonuses, can take the full power out a TP.

VariousPositions Opener
CO Sami
Sami is the greatest infantry and mech specialist in all of Wars World. Her mech and infantry units are unrivaled with 120% attack power and receive a 1.5 capture rate. Because of her divine infantry, Sami’s direct units suffer 90/100 stats. Her indirects are normal with 100/100 stats.

Double Time (***)
Double Time is an overlooked COP. For only three stars Sami’s mech and infantry attack power goes up to 160% and they all gain a plus one movement. Not bad at all! Double Time is excellent if you just want to quickly snag those properties in the middle or if you want to mech rush a squad of tanks or artillery.

Victory March (XXXXX)
Victory March is Sami’s personal “I Win” button. Her mech and infantry attack power goes up to a whopping 190% and gain two extra movement! And you thought that was powerful? Sami’s infantry and mechs can capture any property in one day with any HP! That’s right, an insignificant little infantry with 1 HP could capture your HQ and win Sami the game. How great is that? Even if you don’t capture your opponent’s HQ, you can still deplete a good percent of their funds just by taking 4 properties! Her opponent gets weaker as she gets stronger.

All Your Base Are Belong to Sami
Her 1.5 capture is not something that should be over-looked. This bonus is critical to any moment of the game. Once one of Sami’s forces begin to capture a property, good luck trying to pry them off! You would have to get her forces below 5 HP in order to prevent the capture. Since cities give 3 terrain stars, it is very unlikely Javier will be able to knock her forces off his cities.

Kiss your biggest advantage goodbye!
Because of this extra capture rate, Sami is the perfect CO to counter Javier. Javier has a few towers? No problem. Sami uses Victory March and takes them before Javier even realizes what happened. But say you don’t have Victory March yet? Don’t worry, just use Double Time. The extra movement will help Sami’s soldiers get to those towers faster and capture them with ease.

Everybody’s Girl
Nobody tags better than Sami. In most cases she will be a supportive CO and be used on the second turn. The first CO will clear the way to the opponent’s HQ and then use Sami to Victory March it. But that’s not all this girl is good for. I can explain a good strategy with all of the following COs:
Eagle 120%
Sonja 110%
Nell 105%
Max 105%
Andy 105%
Adder/Koal
Kindle
Grit
Sensei

It would be unfair to list strategies with all these COs so instead I’ll pick two that I think could counter Javier. If Vortexian wishes to challenge any of these I will be happy to post my strategy, but I doubt that will be necessary.

Eagle and Sami – Earth and Sky
Eagle: Offensive
Sami: Supportive

This is arguably the best tag in the entire game. I don’t care how much defense Javier has, Eagle is still going to tear apart Javier’s main force and also the area around his HQ. But wait…Eagle gets to go again! Even Javier’s defense (if he happens to have any towers) won’t be able to stand against a second attack from Eagle. And naturally Sami’s forces will then clean up the stragglers and Victory March the HQ. Sure, this tag does take a little while to charge, but once it does you usually win the match. The extra 15% luck the two of them get together is just icing on the cake.

Nell and Sami - Who couldn’t use a little luck?
Nell: Usually Offensive
Sami: Usually Supportive

These two have an excellent tag with one another. Both these ladies are famous for their infantry and mech units that dish out tons of damage. Once you pull this tag off, Javier’s defense will mean nothing. Since Sami is in the battle, a lot of mechs and infantry will be made. Nell happens to work well with these units as well. With Nell’s luck, her infantry can take down B-Copters, Megatanks, Neotanks and almost any other unit. But say Nell happens to have some bad luck and the infantry takes damage – no problem. Switch to Sami and this damaged infantry can race out and capture a city.

I would also like to point out that Javier only has 4 positive tags while Sami has 6 positive tags.

Rock-Paper-Scissors
We all know that Sami has weaker direct units (90/100). This problem can be solved easier than most people think, however. Advance Wars has always had a rock-paper-scissors element to it, and Sami really uses it. Sami’s AA units will still have enough power to take down B-Copters, MD tanks will still crush tanks, bombers will still crush neotanks and the list goes on. Sami just has to be careful to attack with the right units and she’ll be fine. The only unit that is really affected by this decrease in power is the normal tank. But Sami makes up for it by having extra strong mechs that can function as tanks. Her mechs can trash tanks, AAs and recons alike.

First we’ll take Manhattan, then we’ll take Berlin.
To be blunt, Sami is a star on small and large maps. Medium maps are her weakest out of the three, but she can still hold her own on them. If you’ve ever played a small map against Sami, you’ll know how strong she can be. Smaller maps have fewer cities, making funds harder to get. Sami can mech flood the whole map and take out any tanks/recons/AA the opponent may have. Her capture bonus also comes into play here since if she begins to capture any of your properties, you’re done for. Large maps also work in her favor since her opponent can’t possibly be bothered to protect every single island/city on the map. Sami can sweep in with her T-Copters and steal the city before her opponent can do anything about it.

Keep in mind that not many maps have towers. And if they do, they’re not going to be sitting there waiting for Javier to take them. He’s going to have to work very hard to beat Sami to them.

Score one for the grunts!
So as you can see, Sami’s only weakness can easily be compensated for. Her foot soldiers are second to none and she tags well with every CO. Her extra capture bonus is critical at any part of the game and she functions well on any map size. Not only is Sami a great CO, but she is the perfect CO to counter Javier. She neutralizes his biggest strength and adds it to her own power. Not bad for an Orange Star CO, eh?

Vortexian First Rebuttal
Wall 'em Up
Sami's infantry can be very fast during her CO powers and with her capture rate, she can be quite some pain. However, her units still can't get past Javier's units when he makes a wall with them. Sami's units need to break that wall, mainly with her Mechs. They are powerful in the attack region (as strong as Kanbei), but defense is still average. Lets look in this scenario: Javier has a wall, with an infantry on a mountain somewhere in it. Sami attacks the infantry, doing a great deal of damage. Javier, quickly moves the infantry away and replaces it with a strong infantry. He will also deal a lot of damage(unless you let the enemy attack from another mountain) making Sami's Mech a lot less powerful.

This Town is too small for two of us
If Sami wants to capture properties, there is one thing she forgets. First, she has to take out the unit on top. VP already said that urban terrain has three terrain stars and that it would be quite a problem to take away 5HP from her mechs, but it also works the other way around. It will take her units also quite some trouble to take out the units on Javier's cities.

Double Trouble
Sami is one of the best support COs, but she is just a support CO. She needs to rely on the other COs strength to do the dirty work.
When using the Eagle/Sami Tag, you probably will have more planes than infantry on the field and it is only a good tag power if there are any airports on the field. Eagle can do two attacks in one turn, but if he doesn't have any air units on the field, he doesn't have the firepower to make a gap to bring Sami to the enemy HQ; especially not when Javier tags with Kanbei. Also, it will take quite some while before Sami and Eagle can release a tag, right after Javier and Kanbei did, so their forces would be quite smaller than VP thought of.
With Nell, it is a different story. Simple, Nell can tag with everybody and win. Sami has no part in that. Using Nell also is frowned upon. She always is called overpowered , so you won't get much glory in defeating the enemy with her on your side. Against this combo, I suggest a Javier/Hachi combo, as it has another overpowered CO.

Know your weaknesses
With Javier as opponent, all of Sami's troops are weaker in the attack, except for her infantry. If Javier gets a Com Tower in his possession (which is used frequently on the newer maps) they get even a bigger problem, if both had a Com Tower, Sami's units would be considered 90/90! That's as strong as Colin, who has the weakest units. And that is what VP forgot. It is true that Sami's AA's can take out battle Copters and her Bombers can take out Neotanks, but her AAs will have a bigger problem with tanks and she needs to use her units against specific units. She can't use her AAs against vehicles and attacking an AA with her bomber is worse than for most COs. Countering her units her is much easier. That is what makes her weaker against Javier.

Is Sami Stronger?
No, she isn't. Her strength lies in her infantry offense, while all of her units can be countered the normal way. If there are com towers, it will probably will be placed in such a way that both can get one easily. In that case, Javier will take down Sami, as her defense got weaker for every unit. She almost always needs to play the supportive role in a Tag team, which perfectly shows us how powerful she is. She isn't, especially not against Javier, who takes down her main damage dealers (indirects) and with Com towers also takes down her defense.

VariousPositions First Rebuttal
Javier is a very strong CO when against Sami. Sami has to rely on Indirects to damage the opponent a lot.
False! While her indirects are stronger than her direct units, that doesn't mean Sami will be pushing out rockets Grit-style! With the slight exception of Grit, every CO uses direct units and Sami is no exception. Like I said earlier, Sami is just going to have to play the rock-paper-scissors strategy a lot more. The only unit Sami will rely on more to damage her enemy are her mechs. This is an excellent unit to excel with because they are cheap, can move far in the APCs, can counter many land units and can also capture urban terrain! This makes Sami and her mechs very versatile and deadly.
Her powers are best when used for a capturing strategy.
OMG SPOILERZ! And Sonja’s powers are best in Fog of War. I fail to see your point.
Every smart Javier user would place units on important buildings, as Com towers and the HQ.
I’m sorry, but this plan simply isn't realistic. You mean to tell me that you’re going to have a unit placed on every city, every tower and your HQ? Not only must you have a unit on every urban tile, but you’ll also need a unit that can withstand one of Sami’s mechs! This rules out other foot soldiers, tanks, recons, APCs and A-Airs. Notice how all of these happen to be the cheaper units? In order to stop Sami from mech swarming your properties, you’re going to need something strong like an MD tank. And with all your strong units protecting your properties, which units are going to fight on the main front? The cheap units? Well they can all be countered easily by mechs and AAs! The plan just isn’t realistic.
A smart Javier player would also make a wall, so no enemy transport can go through.
This plan is flawed for the same reason as the “protect your cities” plan. It’s going to cost you a lot to fund this wall if you want to make it worthwhile. Or you could make cheap units like infantry and recons to build the wall. Well, this won’t work either. Sami’s mechs will slaughter the recons and Sami’s infantry will always come out on top when facing other foot soldiers. It just isn’t realistic.
With Com Towers, Sami is in lots of trouble.
Yeah, Javier with Com Towers is a lot of trouble for anybody! You know why? Because he’s broken!

Kanbei and Javier both have defense skills. So when you tag these two together, a set of your defense is going to waste. Why would you take Javier with somebody who already has high defense? Doesn’t sound like a smart move to me.

When facing Sami, tagging with Sensei would be completely pointless. Sensei’s foot soldiers are 10% weaker than Sami, so in any skirmishes Sami would come out on top. Also seems pretty pointless, doesn’t it?
There is another tag with Javier who can be quite lethal. When combined with Lash, he can be quite a pain.
This tag is quite simple to counter. Sami and Sonja have a very good tag together (110%) and we all know how useless Lash becomes when our lady Sonja arrives. Not to mention that Sami and Sonja get +10% attack power and 5% luck whereas Lash and Javier get nothing.

Sami is much better than Javier.

Javier is totally dependent on towers. If he doesn’t have his towers, he has nothing. Sure, he’s decent against indirects but that certainly won’t stop Sami from capturing all his precious properties. Javier is completely situational while Sami will always be the Queen of Capture. She will always have divine foot soldiers and snag all your properties. Javier will only be good on some maps, and on those maps he will be terribly broken. Why choose Sami? Sami has solid powers and will never let you down, whereas Javier is far too dependent on map choice and is completely broken.

Vortexian Second Rebuttal
False! While her indirects are stronger than her direct units, that doesn't mean Sami will be pushing out rockets Grit-style! With the slight exception of Grit, every CO uses direct units and Sami is no exception. Like I said earlier, Sami is just going to have to the play the rock-paper-scissors strategy a lot more. The only unit Sami will rely on more to damage her enemy are her mechs. This is an excellent unit to excel with because they are cheap, can move far in the APC’s, can counter many land units and can also capture urban terrain! This makes Sami and her mechs very versatile and deadly.
VP just forgot one minor drawback of Sami's mechs. Their defense, which still is the same. That minor mistake makes the far movement with APCs and T-copters a bit less dangerous, as her just unloaded mech can easily be attacked.
OMG SPOILERZ! And Sonja’s powers are best in Fog of War. I fail to see your point.
I also fail to see your point, VP.
I’m sorry, but this plan simply isn’t realistic. You mean to tell me that you’re going to have a unit placed on every city, every tower and your HQ? Not only must you have a unit on every urban tile, but you’ll also need a unit that can withstand one of Sami’s mechs! This rules out other foot soldiers, tanks, recons, APC’s and A-Airs. Notice how all of these happen to be the cheaper units? In order to stop Sami from mech swarming your properties, you’re going to need something strong like an MD tank. And with all your strong units protecting your properties, which units are going to fight on the main front? The cheap units? Well they can all be countered easily by mechs and AA’s! The plan just isn’t realistic.the
First, I said important buildings, not every urban tile. Next, Sami's Mechs are maybe strong enough to blow a tank to bits when the tank is on a city tile, but you never should wait till Sami attacks, because her mechs still have mech defense.
This plan is flawed for the exact reason the “protect your cities” plan. It’s going to cost you a lot to fund this wall if you want to make it worthwhile. Or you could make cheap units like infantry and recons to build the wall. Well, this won’t work either. Sami’s mechs will slaughter the recons and the Sami’s infantry will always come out on top when facing other foot soldiers. It just isn’t realistic.
So you knew I was going to use infantry and recons? Those can do a good job weakening your mechs and are easy to replace.
Yeah, Javier with Com Towers is a lot of trouble for anybody! You know why? Because he’s broken!
Kanbei and Javier both have defense skills. So when you tag these two together, a set of your defense is going to waste. Why would you take Javier with somebody who already has high defense? Doesn’t sound like a smart move to me.
When facing Sami, tagging with Sensei would be completely pointless. Sensei’s foot soldiers are 10% weaker than Sami, so in any skirmishes Sami would come out on top. Also seems pretty pointless, doesn’t it?
Why choose Kanbei? Because they both can have a high attack too. After a tag of them, your Mechs will be roadkill.
With Sensei, it isn't the quality, but quantity that counts. Next is that Sensei's copters are the best in defeating mechs and can transport his infantry quicker than Sami. That may not look like much, but that really can make a difference. And I almost forgot that his land units don't get powered down. Thanks VP, you just showed me a better combo against Sami.
This tag is quite simple to counter. Sami and Sonja have a very good tag together (110%) and we all know how useless Lash becomes when our lady Sonja arrives. Not to mention that Sami and Sonja get +10% attack power and 5% luck whereas Lash and Javier get nothing.
First, you need to know that I'm going to use Lash. If you knew I was going to use Lash, I would know that you were going to use Sonja and I wouldn't use Lash. You see the problem?
Sami is much better than Javier.
Javier is totally dependent on towers. If he doesn’t have his towers, he has nothing. Sure, he’s decent against indirects but that certainly won’t stop Sami from capturing all his precious properties. Javier is completely situational while Sami will always be the Queen of Capture. She will always have divine foot soldiers and snag all your properties. Javier will only be good on some maps, and on those maps he will be terribly broken. Why choose Sami? Sami has solid powers and will never let you down, whereas Javier is far too dependent on map choice and is completely broken.
So, first Javier has nothing and when he gets CTs he is broken? That always is. Every CO has its strengths and weaknesses. Without Mechs, Sami is nothing. That's why her mechs are broken. The difference here is that Javier would be nothing with extra indirect defense  Sami needs to rely on those too, because only using mechs would be far too dangerous. my indirects could cause great harm and with smart usage, I could terribly weaken her units. Sami is an expert in defeating enemy rushes and destroying the enemy by capture, that also means that a defensive strategy that people would use with Javier can kill her. Sami will be a better CO overall, but against Javier she's nothing. And that is what it is all about.

VariousPositions Second Rebuttal
Vortexian, your biggest loss here is that you assume the Sami player is a dumb monkey. You also assume that Javier has 5 towers and is untouchable. This is never the case and you have to deal with realistic situations, not just those in your favor.
Javier has a wall, with an infantry on a mountain somewhere in it. Sami attacks the infantry, doing a big deal of damage. Javier, quickly moves the infantry away and replaces it with a strong infantry.
Yup, and the monkey player using Sami will just blindly continue charging that mountain! We Sami players have no idea how to flank, use our COP to break the line, bombard the wall with rockets or anything. These are just three simple strategies that easily counter your “magical golden wall”. Yes I said rockets, you know why? Rockets will still do nice damage to Javier even with his extra defense. It isn’t like he’s immune to them. Your “wall” will not be able to stand attacks from 3 rockets while getting flanked by a few tanks and Double Time’d by a few mechs. Again, your plan just isn’t realistic.
VP already said that urban terrain has three terrain stars and that it would be quite a problem to take away 5HP from her mechs, it also works the other way around.
Not exactly. Without a tower (which is most of the time) Javier has 100/100 stats, Sami’s mechs have 120/100. This extra 20% attack will crush that tank protecting your city while Javier’s tank won’t completely kill the tank that I had on my city. Sami still has the advantage when trying to capture properties.
Sami is one of the best support CO's, but she is just a support CO. She needs to rely on the other CO's strength to do the dirty work.
You just dug your own grave here! When Sami tags, she will most likely be the support CO. You know why? Because she’s the one who’s going to Victory March your HQ and win me the game. She is a support CO to Nell and Eagle because both of them are so powerful! But Sami can certainly hold her own as I’ve pointed out in my first argument. Both her CO powers can be used as supportive powers or offensive powers. In both situations Sami gains very powerful foot soldiers. You can use these foot soldiers to pretty much OHKO (offensive) many land units or you can use them to run around the map and get you tons of gold (defensive). Sami is the goddess of versatility, you could almost say she knows various positions!
When using the Eagle/Sami Tag, you probably will have more planes than infantry on the field and it is only a good tag power if there are any airports on the field.
I agree, chances are you will have more air units than infantry. That would be the smart thing to do, considering you only need one infantry to win the entire game! One infantry is all it takes. I think if one is using the Eagle/Sami tag that there would be airports on the field. And even so, there are sure a lot more airports on maps than there are towers!
With Nell, it is a different story. Simple, Nell can tag with everybody and win. Sami has no part in that. using Nell also is frowned upon. She always is called overpowered , so you won't get much glory in defeating the enemy with her on your side.
Replace “Nell” with Javier and you pretty much have this paragraph’s counter point. I can’t believe you’re calling Nell overpowered when you’re debating an overpowered CO yourself. If anything you should trying to downplay your CO's brokenness instead of giving me fuel to the fire! You won’t get much glory using Javier on a map with towers, since even if he has 2 towers he is broken. You ask all the respected members on this forum and I’m willing to bet over 90% will think he’s broken as well. I’m not sure if you don’t see that, or are just trying not to admit it because you’re debating for him. Either way, I think you should realize that he is broken and it kind of worries me that you don’t! Sami does have part in the Nell tag for the critical reason I sad in my first post! If Nell’s infantry take any damage they can rush to get some properties. If there isn’t a property near by, Sami will probably have enough firepower to take down the remaining enemy anyway. This is a great tag and is no more broken then your silly Javier-Kanbei tag or even Javier alone.
If Javier gets a Com Tower in his possession (which is used frequently on the newer maps) they get even a bigger problem,
No. Actually, there are barely any towers in the versus maps. This is including Classic and War Room mind you. I decided to see how many towers there actually are in these versus maps, and here’s what I found (it goes number of tower maps/number of maps).
Pre-Deployed Maps: 6/31
2 CO’s: 2/27
3 CO’s: 0/27
4 CO’s: 6/36
War Room: 6/49
Classic: 0/19

Ouch. In total there are 189 and there are only towers on 20 of them. If you calculate the percent of that, you’ll find only 10% of the maps have towers. So in other words, Javier is only good on 10% of the maps, or on 20 maps. Not so great when Sami can win you the game with Victory March on all of them, eh? Keep in mind that on these 20 maps, Javier is terribly broken and your friends will most likely beat you with a shovel if you use him. On all the other maps though, Javier is fine and I think it’s been made apparent that Sami can beat him.
Countering her units her is much easier.
No it isn’t! She has a 10% decrease in attack power, not defense. Javier is still going to do the same amount of damage, Sami just may do one less damage to your units. In the grand scheme of things, this is nothing. This tiny little power decrease is nothing compared to what her foot soldiers can do. Forget Victory March here for a second, Sami can just use Double Time and take a few of your properties. This will give Sami more gold, and take away Javier’s gold. That means Sami is going to be able to build more units than Javier which will easily make up for her little power decrease. Prepare to be swarmed!
If there are com towers, it will probably will be placed in such a way that both can get one easily.
See that word at the beginning of that sentence? It’s the word “if”. “If there are com towers”. Which there is a 90% chance there won’t be. Even if there are two towers on the map, Sami is going to have a much easier time capturing both of these than Javier.
Javier, who takes down her main mayor-damage dealers (indirects) and with Com towers also takes down her defense.
No. Sami’s main damage dealers are her mechs and the usual powerful units like neotanks and bombers. And she can get these units quicker than most since she’ll be taking all your gold and cities. She’ll use indirects just as much as everybody else. Have you even played as Sami before, Vortexian? And alright, sure, there’s a 10% chance Javier will also be useful. Good work.

Javier is all about broken chance

Like I said before, there’s a 90% chance Javier will be pretty useless. That means you’ll only want to pick Javier 10% of the time, and when you do, he’s broken. Sami can easily beat Javier 90% of the time. Even that 10% of the time where Javier is broken, Sami is probably the best CO to go against him. She’s the only CO that can take his towers in one turn and completely null his biggest strength. Sami is dependable CO whose strategies work well on any map and with any tag partner. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is why you should choose Sami over Javier.

My Commentary
This one is slightly easier to commentate on. Without towers in play Sami is vastly superior to Javier; that is not in question. However, both participants tended to have pretty dumb arguments all over the place, and I think it's just sheer dumb luck that VP happened to pick the stronger CO and win the debate as a result.

The first and most important thing is this: "broken" is not an argument and never is. The most broken CO can be argued against in a debate, because it's a debate, not actual gameplay. It made me very sad that large portions of the rebuttals tried to make this a point; "Sami's Mechs are broken," "Javier's towers are broken," etc. etc....

This debate in general is just sad to read. Vortexian made good points about Javier+towers, but VP's only response to this was to say that com towers don't appear very often in the stock maps. He says this in the second rebuttal, giving Vortexian no chance to reply with the fact that quite a few user-created maps do in fact utilize towers; absolutely pitiful, and very poor debating practice. Key arguments like that should be made early enough in the debate for your opponent to respond to them; to do otherwise makes you look like an asshole at best.

On the other hand, Vortexian didn't do a very good job of saying why Sami is weak, only why Javier is strong. He seems to have thought that Sami relies on Indirects to bolster her Mechs; VP argued that she bolsters them with a regular force of directs, which is somewhat closer to the Mech/Copter strategy now in use.

Overall, I do think VP should have been considered the loser in this debate. Vortexian made mistakes, but VP generally got hemmed in on the point about Directs being used in assaults, using the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanic as a defense rather than stating why that mechanic applies differently to Sami. The key argument that won him the debate in 2006 was only introduced in the second rebuttal, which is just the height of bad form and something he should have been called out on. He also had a pointless argument about Sami's COP; I say it's pointless because her COP doesn't do anything. Firepower and movement are good, but playing Sami for COP is like playing Kindle for SCOP as far as wasted potential goes.


Round 1: Three-Headed-Monkey vs Retsej [CD1R1-THMvR]

Retsej Opener
Eagle
Cool and charismatic, Eagle has attracted many fans over the course of his career. The fast and extremely aggressive style of his CO powers can instill as much, if not more, fear in the enemy than Victory March, Black Storm, and most certainly more than Ex Machina. Now we shall examine the tactical advantage an Eagle player will enjoy against the lovable, yet idiotic, Andy.

At a glance.
Comparing his ground units to Andy, neither seems better off than the other. In fact, on a purely ground based map, Eagle, a CO defined by his aerial prowess, can more than hold his own due to his CO powers, as explained in a later section.

King of the Skies.
The air is where our friend Eagle is meant to dwell, and here he truly shines. Eagle enjoys a +20% bonus to his aerial units' attack over Andy (in fact over most CO), as well as reduced fuel consumption. His Battle Copters, one of the game's most versatile units, dominate air and ground, blowing other copters out of the air in a single hit. A copters missiles eradicate light to medium armored vehicles with relative ease and can soften up heavy armored units, risking very little damage in return (excepting, of course against Anti-Air units. You don't ever attack those with copters unless you want to see to your copters get blown out of the air (which is very rare, but not unheard of for me)). His bombers can take out most ground and sea units in a single hit, and his fighters maul any opponent foolish enough to take to the skies.

Admiral Eagle?
Eagle suffers a firepower penalty at seas, but his naval units are not crippled. Much like Sami and Colin, it becomes a simple matter of carefully choosing targets. Even at a firepower penalty, cruisers still kill copters and subs, subs still take out b-ships, and those battle ships... well, I'll wait until I get to the CO powers. Despite this, against Andy, or any other CO for that matter, Eagle is not your primary choice for naval units.

Who says lightning never strikes the same place twice?
Eagle has two very powerful CO powers, both with effects and stratigies unique to him alone. Unlike most COs, who benefit the most from their powers when they activate it at the beginning of their turn, Eagle gets the full benefit by activating his at the end of turn, which, from a relative stand point, allows him to activate his CO power a full turn earlier if the opponent wants to use his power to full potential.

Lightning Drive
This power allows Eagle to strike again with all non-infantry units at the cost of reduced firepower until next turn. This firepower penalty drives most players to save up for the ginormous cost of Lightning Strike, but when utilized correctly, this ability can be almost as potent. Two attacks means you can send in two waves of units, the first blasting away at the opponents without regard to a counter attack. The second then advances. Eagle builds the third wave, then uses Lightning Drive. The first wave advances even further into enemy territory, crippling the forces that were stationed to counter attack. If Eagle included transports with his first wave, they deploy behind the forces that were supposed to stop them from getting in in the first place. The second wave cleans up any stragglers. You can't heal what isn't there. The third wave moves into support position for the second wave. End turn.

Lightning Strike
Just like above, but better as you suffer no firepower penalty (in fact, you get an increase). You can now do a little trick that I've been hinting to, and that most of you know. Usually an indirect unit cannot move and attack in the same turn. Thanks to this power, you can easily resolve any Mexican standoffs you were in with the enemy's indirects.

Mixing it up
Eagle has insane tag capabilities, easily augmenting any COs' abilities with a third attack during Tag powers. His dreaded team-up with Sami provide him with a luck bonus and typically adds a clause into the tag power that reads like this: "I win." When combined with Drake, they dominate both air and sea. He and Max will slaughter anything with bombers, fighters and copters. He and Jess suddenly open up a new world of pain, dominating the ground with quick spurts of lightning drive, followed by Jess's own ability next turn, and his units are still factory fresh in fuel and ammo thanks to overdrive during the Tag Power.

In conclusion, Eagle is an extremely versatile CO who dominate the skies with ease and slaughter any ground and sea opposition with intellegent uses of his powers. Pair him with just about any CO but Hawke, and you've just opened Pandora's Box.

My Commentary
A significantly shorter "debate" than previously as Retsej's opponent never responded. I will go ahead and comment on his analysis of Eagle, though.

The assertion that Lightning Strike is like a better Lightning Drive is incorrect. What Lightning Strike really amounts to is triple the cost of Lightning Drive with less than double the effect. Lightning Drive may reduce firepower, but unlike its SCOP cousin it can be spammed. Being specifically intended for use at the end of the turn, Eagle will never go more than two turns without firing off COP once the fighting starts. Two moves with this frequency equates to more damage being dealt, more space being traversed, and more production slots freed up front. If you're about to fire this power off you can completely skip building anything past the front line of industries, and the result is a greater concentration of force on the battlefield. It's also often the case that one unit gains the ability to do the job of two: Eagle's Copters, for example, can destroy any bland or worse Copter in a single turn by themselves on the turn LD is fired.

The biggest thing to cover here is something I chose not to mention in Vortexian vs VP: Eagle's and Sami's named Tag, Earth and Sky. I've talked about it on BHHQ a bit but never really elaborated on why I don't consider this Tag to be as godly as many people have tended to believe, so let me do so here. The argument you hear most often in favor of Earth and Sky is the ability to bring an Infantry clear across the map in a transport and then capture the enemy HQ. This argument, to put it simply, is just plain fucking stupid. First of all, any idiot can see this coming from a mile away and plop an Infantry on their HQ, assuming the risk of a breakthrough even exists. Why would that be an issue, you ask? Sami and Eagle have no play style synergy at all. Sami's ideal strategy requires a heavy soldier focus, while Eagle's requires a heavy vehicle focus. The Tag can only be effective by playing an Eagle strategy while Sami charges up, because this is the only way to have enough firepower to possibly clear a path to anything important for what few soldiers you may have. Unless the enemy HQ is just hanging out there like in a select few War Room maps, this is ironically one of the worst Tags for having Sami take it. You can't even grab all that many properties during Sami's turn since you haven't been focusing on her optimal build. This isn't to say it's a bad Tag, it's still tier 5.5, but it's not Sami's most effective Tag and it's definitely not "godly." If you're expecting to beat a 6th tier CO or a Kanbei or Colin Tag, you're going to be disappointed.


Work in progress. Check again later for updates.

1 comment:

  1. "Magical bullshit that is 200 defence" ACTUAL LOL

    Really painful read the first time through - could really do with completely rewriting it but I suppose that's not how to have fun, lol. Besides, we learn more by analysing our mistakes rather than erasing their existence.

    Really need to test out for myself if Kanbei and Colin are on equal footing...

    ReplyDelete